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To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

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To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:04 am

http://www.mamamia.com.au/vaccinations/anti-vaccination-advocate-takedown/

Calling on fact filled opinions with credible sources. Would love to hear from Dr Santiago.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by lunateak on Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:45 am

Wasn't the article you provided written by an immunologist credible and fact-filled?
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:01 am

Didn't say it was. Article is for debate and new facts. Anybody have any? For the record I have and continue to have as few vaccinations as possible. Since I was born I have only had whatever the vaccines that were required by law in 1962 and a tetanus the one w/o mercury. 

What I am looking for are facts and opinions from medical sources and debate w/o assanine comments.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:07 am

lunateak wrote:Wasn't the article you provided written by an immunologist credible and fact-filled?
I don't know if the immunologist is right or wrong. I hope he is stating facts.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by Lady Otter Latté on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:11 am

Lunateak´s comment was not asinine. You were not clear on what you are asking. I think what you mean is that you are looking for people who disagree with this credible source´s facts. If you doubt this source´s facts why will you trust more facts presented here? Unless you want to start doing original research, you are going to have to trust someone´s facts at some point.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:34 am

Alright let me try this again. With the rise in TB, Pertussis, Polio those to name a few. When does the greater good out weigh your personal opinion.

sources later, facts still welcome on OP.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by lunateak on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:38 am

Do you want to argue whether people should be required to vaccinate or whether vaccinations are valid? Or are just looking to.  Shit stirring ?
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:09 am

Outbreaks US note bordering countries and take into consideration international travel.

TB http://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/statistics/TBTrends.htm

Public health researchers say missing out the Syrian province contributed to the reemergence there of polio, a highly infectious, incurable disease that can paralyze a child within hours but has been wiped out in many parts of the world.

In November, the World Health Organisation (WHO) said 13 cases had been found in the province. Two more have since been recorded there and the virus has surfaced in Aleppo city and near Damascus, the first outbreak since 1999 in Syria, where civil war has raged since a crackdown on protests in 2011.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/17/us-syria-crisis-polio-idUSBRE9BG06R20131217

Case in point:
Cholera:
According to the Pan American Health OrganizationExternal Web Site Icon (PAHO), there have been 184 confirmed cholera cases, including one death, reported in Mexico since August 2013. Two of the cases occurred in the Federal District (Mexico City), 160 cases occurred in the state of Hidalgo, 9 cases occurred in the state of Mexico, 2 cases occurred in the state of San Luis Postosi, and 11 cases occurred in the state of Veracruz. Mexican health authorities continue to work to control the outbreak. http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/watch/cholera-in-mexico


Hypothetically there is an outbreak of cholera in Jalisco state but it is a live vaccine, has thimersol sp? and mercury plus formaldehyde.You don't want it. Should you be forced by law to be vaccinated?

Ironically there is a vaccine for cholera but it not available in the USA.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by SnowDaddy on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:11 am

I think it's to Shit stirring 
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:13 am

lunateak wrote:Do you want to argue whether people should be required to vaccinate or whether vaccinations are valid?  Or are just looking to.  Shit stirring ?

Hell why not both?  Beer  I know the valid reasons why and they are very compelling!
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by Lady Otter Latté on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:14 am

Hypothetically, how is the law going to enforce mandatory vaccinations, know who has them and who doesn´t, organize such a project, carry it out and pay for it?
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:41 am

In the US children have to have current required
vaccination records to attend school unless home schooled. Daycare the same unless the stay at home mommy is running unlicensed daycare. That is a fact not a hypothetical for the USA.

There is an exemption status for CA and NM with regard to religious and personal/philosophical belief exemptions.

http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements.aspx
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by Lady Otter Latté on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:51 am

Parents who do not want to vaccinate their children should home school them. Whether they like it or not, that is the reality. Either vaccinate your kids and put them in public school or do not vaccinate them and home school.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by Chapalamed on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:58 pm

There has been ample debate on both sides of this vaccination issue. There are certainly a enough pros and cons to give those on both sides of the issue to keep the debate going for days on end.  

As a scientist and physician I have come to read and understand that the benefits for humanity as a whole far outweigh the risks and side effects (sadly) experienced by a few. Small pox has been eradicated by vaccination and has been accepted as a fact by the scientific and medical communities. We can say that millions of lives were saved. The internet was not as proleferative as it is now and single case studies were published in respected medical journals after being rigorously vetted by the medical community. Now a parent who thinks that their child has suffered an illness he/she attributes to the Side-effects of a vaccine can write a blog or post a video that can go viral worldwide in a matter of hours given the ease and power of the internet and today's social media.    I do believe that statistically the Smallpox vaccine may have caused some adverse reactions to some who were inoculated with it.  But many would argue that ethically, for humanity it was an acceptable risk and outcome.

As a Rotarian I am active in promoting the eradication of Polio by the use of vaccines. I do believe that it is a worthy cause and I am aware that there are some cases of people getting "Polio"or Polio-like symptoms from the vaccine or water that was tainted by the vaccine.  We are very close to eradicating Polio and I am very much an advocate of the use of vaccines to accomplish this goal.

So perhaps I am not objective. I prescribe and base my decisions and recommendations on the latest UP TO DATE evidence-based medical literature. I know that there are those who would critique my stance but it's the way I've been trained and the lens thru which I see the world and base my medical recommendations.  

I do hope we eradicate Polio with and without the use of vaccines.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by Dr. Sam Thelin on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:24 am

All questions are best answered with all the facts included.

1. What are all the ingredients in all the vaccines? http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

2. Do some of the ingredients have toxic effects if given in high enough quantities? Yes.

3. Is a high enough concentration (to be toxic) possible in the volume given in a single vaccine? There is no evidence that it is.

4. Can a vaccine cause an immune response that causes damage such as Guillain–Barré syndrome? Yes, but so can exposure to the actual disease. What is Guillain-Barré? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome

5. Are vaccines effective against the acquiring the actual disease? Sometimes. They do not usually come near 100% effectiveness (overall average is somewhere around 60% effective). Here is the effectiveness of the influenza vaccine: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6207a1.htm?s_cid=rr6207a1_w#InfluenzaVaccineEffectiveness

6. If it is accepted that the use of vaccines would be advisable, how can someone avoid the risk of the "toxic" ingredients? If they are assumed toxic at higher levels, lowering the dose would be recommended. Thus, one vaccine at a time would incur a lower level then getting two or more vaccines at the same time.

7. If the vaccine may not be effective, what can be done to ensure that it works? Avoid taking anti-inflammatory medications (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc) before and after the vaccine. Even paracetamol / acetaminophen can lower the immune response to the vaccine. http://www.jimmunol.org/content/177/11/7811.abstract and http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2809%2961208-3/abstract  Also, repeated doses will increase the odds that it will work, but not usually recommended, and sometimes not advisable.  The only way to know if you have immunity is by a laboratory exam called an antibody titer. However, it can be assumed that a 50% to 85% chance of having immunity is better than 0%.

8. Should people be legally forced to be vaccinated, considering freedom and risks of the vaccine itself? No.

9. Should people vaccinated, but who are not immune (see number 5) be forced to be infected by those not vaccinated? No

10. Do number 8 and 9 together present a problem? Yes

Dr. Sam Thelin
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by espíritu del lago on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:34 am

Great info. . Appreciate your time to give us some facts! I still as of now will not get flue. Since pertussis has made a comeback in my area I definitely am considering it.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by Chapalamed on Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:54 am

I think that history is the lens that we can all see through and will bring us to the conclusion that overall, vaccines are safe and good for MOST individuals and all of humanity. Ethical debates will continue, no doubt. Public Health is not the easiest of things for most governments to handle. Historically, governments tend to clean up the mess of an outbreaks or epidemics rather than prevent them.

Some food for thought,  the communicable diseases that were brought over from Europe by the Pilgrims and Conquistadors were responsible for killing most of the indigenous peoples in the Americas than their bullets.
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Re: To Vaccinate Or Not A New Look

Post by lunateak on Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:34 am

Another tidbit....

The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster.
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