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Seguro Popular vs IMSS

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:05 pm

I don't have either IMSS or SP however coming from a country that offers all it's immigrants very low cost health-care I would have no problem signing up for IMSS (which is something you have to pay into similar to Canada) but probably not SP as I believe that one is for Mexico's truly poor.


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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by David on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:21 pm

I'm with CBob on this one. I don't find it disgusting at all. The folks I know that do avail themselves of IMSS or SP are all beyond the age when they can buy private insurance.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by Rosa Venus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:49 pm

This thread has certainly gone off topic - that is, it's no longer about the merits of IMSS versus Seguro Popular - but for me, it's become much more interesting: A conversation about whether or not foreigners should avail themselves of either program. I'm more than a little ambivalent on that.

On the one hand, when I first moved to Mexico, I made a personal promise to myself that I would never be a burden of any kind, and wouldn't take advantage of any public programs I felt were in place for those less financially fortunate. That thinking squared with my moral compass, and my general sense of feeling fortunate to have lived a relatively privileged life compared to many in this country. And I have had private health insurance since living here.

On the other hand, if I understand it correctly, with Seguro Popular Mexico is making a sincere effort to launch their version of Universal Healthcare. That's a laudable goal, in my view, and something I've been hoping the far wealthier, ass-backwards US would do for a long time.

So, I'm beginning to wonder if that view - thinking the US should be striving for it, but that Mexico needn't - makes me something of a hypocrite. Or worse.

It's a noble goal, Universal Healthcare. And the word "universal" is a lot like the word "pregnant": it either is or it isn't.

So should legal residents of Mexico who came here from another country use IMSS or Seguro Popular? Like I said, I'm still ambivalent. No matter what, who am I to judge the decisions of others? Can Mexico afford to include long-term visiting foreigners under their generous healthcare umbrella? I have no idea, and as pointed out in a previous post, neither does anybody else on this forum. That's a question for the Mexican number-crunchers and policy-makers.

That they appear to want to, and seem to be willing to at least for the time being, strikes me as extraordinarily generous and entirely Mexican.

Qué viva México. flag waver





Last edited by Rosa Venus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by joec on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:59 pm

gringal wrote:The point was that it's disgusting for expats who can afford their own medical care, be it insurance or out of pocket, to take advantage of the "freebies"available.....just because they can.

I agree, but that's how it works everywhere.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by joec on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:00 pm

CanuckBob wrote:I don't have either IMSS or SP however coming from a country that offers all it's immigrants very low cost health-care I would have no problem signing up for IMSS (which is something you have to pay into similar to Canada) but probably not SP as I believe that one is for Mexico's truly poor.


Why do you believe that SP is ONLY for Mexico's poor?

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by viajero on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:18 pm

joec wrote:
CanuckBob wrote:I don't have either IMSS or SP however coming from a country that offers all it's immigrants very low cost health-care I would have no problem signing up for IMSS (which is something you have to pay into similar to Canada) but probably not SP as I believe that one is for Mexico's truly poor.


Why do you believe that SP is ONLY for Mexico's poor?
Seguro Popular is a medical saftey net for Mexicans who can't afford other options,and it's already overburdened.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:33 pm

Agreed.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by Dr. Sam Thelin on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:43 am

Seguro Popular is for anyone that wants it. It is not just for the poor. However, the poor are the ones that benefit from it.

The cost is based on income, more or less. The very poor pay nothing, and get the "full" benefits. Those with higher incomes will pay over $1,000 usd per year to insure their family with it.

However, to pay that price for a basic insurance, when there are better private insurances for the Mexicans, is not the most logical move. Thus, the poor are simply more likely to use it than the ones with more money.

¿Tiene algún costo el Seguro Popular?
A todas las familias que solicitan su incorporación al Sistema de Protección Social en Salud a través del Seguro Popular se les hace un estudio socioeconómico para clasificar a la familia en uno de los diez deciles (niveles) de ingresos. Las familias que se encuentran en los dos primeros deciles de ingreso no pagan ninguna cuota; son parte del régimen no contributivo. Tampoco pagan cuota alguna las familias ubicadas en el decil III que cuenten con al menos un integrante de hasta 5 años cumplidos; en caso de no cumplir la condición antes mencionada la cuota anual es de $713.16 para el decil III.
Para las familias ubicadas en los deciles IV al X deberán cubrir la cuota familiar que les corresponda, las cuales van desde $1,400.04 hasta $11, 378.86 por familia al año.


http://www.seguro-popular.salud.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=64

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:52 am

Interesting. I didn't realize that those with "means" had to pay for SP. Why is it then that there are many gringos with money apparently signing up to SP for free? I would think the monetary requirements to get a visa would automatically indicate that they have substantial income.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by gringal on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:23 am

Ya think it's possible that a gringo might not be entirely truthful about their finances when applying for Seguro Popular? Naaaah!
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:32 am

But the point is that to sign up for SP you have to have a visa. No? And by default having a visa indicates a monthly income of substantial means (by many Mexican's standards).
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CheenaGringo on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:45 am

CB:

While your point is logical and makes sense, we have all seen posts on various forums with people literally bragging about not having to pay into the system. And I am not just talking about the Guadalajara/Lake Chapala area either. Since a fairly high number of those Gringos obtaining Seguro Popular appear to be using facilitators, one has to wonder what promises are being made and what the accuracy level is of the applications?

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by coffeeguy on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:10 am

I don't know the situation at Lakeside but in San Miguel de Allende where SP is the first choice option the two very active facilitators there are quite scrupulous in insisting that clients are honest in their statements. Those who rent rather than owning and have modest incomes pay little to join, while lord knows anyone who can afford to own a house in SMA can sure as hell afford private insurance.

Remember thought that unlike IMSS SP does not exclude for pre-existing conditions. A lot of the local hassles and nightmare situations with IMSS were/are due to people being told they had lied about such conditions when they were discovered years later - which clearly was the case in some instances and wasn't in others.


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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:20 am

Coffeeguy, holding a valid visa indicates "means". It may not be substantial by NOB standards but it sure is by many Mexican's standards. I sure hope they have to pay their fair share. The word around here has been that SP is "free" to join.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by joec on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:37 am

CanuckBob wrote:But the point is that to sign up for SP you have to have a visa. No? And by default having a visa indicates a monthly income of substantial means (by many Mexican's standards).

Bob, couldn't they hold a 6 month Visa where you don't have to show means. Last night at Dinner a couple of folks attended the meeting on Immigration put on by Javier from Century 21. The info was interesting. I got more information out of listening to those who attended in 5 minutes than all the misconceptions posted by forum members on any forum.

Like the 3 year Inmigrante card (non renewable) and cost and that ALL vehicles must be Mexican plated in 3 years.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by coffeeguy on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:44 am

I agree with you 100% CanuckBob and as Trailrunner wisely pointed out, "you get what you pay for" especially in times of need! A poster on another forum who's lived in Chapala for many years and has visited SP hospitals many times with friends compares SP membership to buying a lottery ticket: you might end up with great treatment since they have some excellent docs - or you might end up sitting on a gurney dying awaiting a bed, or in a ward with a hundred patients in worse shape than you are taking in sights, sounds and smells that some in a position to know liken to battlefields during wartime. As Clint says, "do ya feel lucky?"

Clearly, as has been said well and often by Dr. Sam and others, the important thing is to understand just how basic and tenuous a safety net SP and IMSS really are and to have a plan. Those who've managed to meet the visa requirements but have no plan and no assets to pay for private hospitals when/if the shit hits the fan ought to do themselves (and Mexico) a favor, IMHO, and move back NOB. The worst case is having no plan and expecting Mexico or your fellow expats to bail you out, something we've seen way too often. The safety net in the U.S. is pretty terrible but at least there is one, and expecting Mexico to provide that for expats when it can't do so for its own citizens is beyond selfish.

Of course I realize you're Canadian and I have the utmost respect for (and some envy of!) the universal coverage up there. Now if you could just do something about importing our weather here to Ontario.....

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by arbon on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:47 am

CanuckBob wrote:Coffeeguy, holding a valid visa indicates "means". It may not be substantial by NOB standards but it sure is by many Mexican's standards. I sure hope they have to pay their fair share. The word around here has been that SP is "free" to join.

Must be the same type of word that says that temporary visitors to Canada can get provincial medical coverage.



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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:49 am

joec wrote:
CanuckBob wrote:But the point is that to sign up for SP you have to have a visa. No? And by default having a visa indicates a monthly income of substantial means (by many Mexican's standards).

Bob, couldn't they hold a 6 month Visa where you don't have to show means. Last night at Dinner a couple of folks attended the meeting on Immigration put on by Javier from Century 21. The info was interesting. I got more information out of listening to those who attended in 5 minutes than all the misconceptions posted by forum members on any forum.

Like the 3 year Inmigrante card (non renewable) and cost and that ALL vehicles must be Mexican plated in 3 years.

I doubt someone with a "tourist visa" can sign up for any Mexican medical program John. I wouldn't trust anything presented by a Real Estate company here or anywhere for that matter. I would trust the knowledge and experience of many of our members first and/or go find out for myself.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by joec on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:06 am

CanuckBob wrote:
joec wrote:
CanuckBob wrote:But the point is that to sign up for SP you have to have a visa. No? And by default having a visa indicates a monthly income of substantial means (by many Mexican's standards).

Bob, couldn't they hold a 6 month Visa where you don't have to show means. Last night at Dinner a couple of folks attended the meeting on Immigration put on by Javier from Century 21. The info was interesting. I got more information out of listening to those who attended in 5 minutes than all the misconceptions posted by forum members on any forum.

Like the 3 year Inmigrante card (non renewable) and cost and that ALL vehicles must be Mexican plated in 3 years.

I doubt someone with a "tourist visa" can sign up for any Mexican medical program John. I wouldn't trust anything presented by a Real Estate company here or anywhere for that matter. I would trust the knowledge and experience of many of our members first and/or go find out for myself.

I understand it was presented by a Lawyer, not a Real Estate company.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:07 am

Trust the lawyer even less (Sorry Spencer).......jajaja.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by joec on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:12 am

CanuckBob wrote:Trust the lawyer even less (Sorry Spencer).......jajaja.

When it comes to Lawyers and immigration, that's their job and I trust them far more than hearsay of individuals on any forum.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CanuckBob on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:12 am

coffeeguy wrote:I agree with you 100% CanuckBob and as Trailrunner wisely pointed out, "you get what you pay for" especially in times of need! A poster on another forum who's lived in Chapala for many years and has visited SP hospitals many times with friends compares SP membership to buying a lottery ticket: you might end up with great treatment since they have some excellent docs - or you might end up sitting on a gurney dying awaiting a bed, or in a ward with a hundred patients in worse shape than you are taking in sights, sounds and smells that some in a position to know liken to battlefields during wartime. As Clint says, "do ya feel lucky?"

Clearly, as has been said well and often by Dr. Sam and others, the important thing is to understand just how basic and tenuous a safety net SP and IMSS really are and to have a plan. Those who've managed to meet the visa requirements but have no plan and no assets to pay for private hospitals when/if the shit hits the fan ought to do themselves (and Mexico) a favor, IMHO, and move back NOB. The worst case is having no plan and expecting Mexico or your fellow expats to bail you out, something we've seen way too often. The safety net in the U.S. is pretty terrible but at least there is one, and expecting Mexico to provide that for expats when it can't do so for its own citizens is beyond selfish.

Of course I realize you're Canadian and I have the utmost respect for (and some envy of!) the universal coverage up there. Now if you could just do something about importing our weather here to Ontario.....

I just get worked up over this because I have seen so many immigrants in Canada "take advantage" of the welfare, EI and social assistance programs.

BTW......we wouldn't go back to Canada even if they had the Mexican sunshine. We much prefer the "Mexican lifestyle". These people know how to live.
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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by joec on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:15 am

Gee, isn't that like the US? And now the US wants to give them Licenses to drive?

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by CheenaGringo on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:19 am

And who would them be?

FYI, a number of States already do allow immigrants driving licenses and a number of additional States are contemplating it.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by Chapala Payaso on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:48 am

Any health insurance program that a person joins is only as good as the physician he is assigned to. I heard a rumor that IMSS is having problems and may be replaced by SP. That's all I have heard on topic and I cannot expand on it. Influenza may be epidemic in the US but rumors are always epidemic in Mexico.

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Re: Seguro Popular vs IMSS

Post by David on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:54 pm

There's close to ZERO chance of that. IMSS is the Social Security System of Mexico and includes far more than just medical care.
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