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Post by Trailrunner on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:44 am

The elephant in the room. The subject no politician will address. Abrupt Irreversible Climate Change.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/30/migrant-caravan-causes-climate-change-central-america?CMP=share_btn_tw
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Post by MexicoPete on Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:22 pm

Yes Trailrunner. But the "Donald" told us there is no such thing. So just relax.

Sadly he did say that and many of his followers believe him. It totally blows my mind that these fools (oh sorry) these persons believe him.

It is really scary.
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Post by Trailrunner on Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:31 pm

I think so too, Pete.
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Post by rvanparys on Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:52 pm

The climate has been changing for millions of years... Reducing man made pollution is a noble effort but like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket.

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Post by ltollefs on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:48 pm

So you agree, then, that an effort, a noble effort, should be made. And what's with your complete non-sequitur first sentence? I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Aside from it being trivially wrong, it adds nothing to the conversation. We all know that climates change. It's just that those changes tend to occur over geologic time. Not by the time you're called for dinner.
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Post by Trailrunner on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:56 pm

Good post, Itollefs.
I was going to ask what rvanparys point was too but I have no patience for deniers anymore so decided not to bother.
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Post by gringal on Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:02 pm

Several hundred years ago, not geologic time ago, man began to pollute the air, the water and the environment in general until now, we know good and well that there are some places where man's activities have rendered them dangerous or fatal places to live.  THAT is something we could change and has nothing to do with momma Nature's long, long term effects.  This was caused by US.
Saying that there is natural "climate change" contributes nothing to the discussion of what WE COULD DO to clean up the mess that's been made by mankind.

Two years ago, the U.S. elected a POTUS who has demonstrated by words and actions that making a buck is far more important than protecting people and places from pollution. The "swamp" was filled with bigger, more destructive alligators.

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Post by ltollefs on Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:18 pm

Trailrunner wrote:Good post, Itollefs.
I was going to ask what rvanparys point was too but I  have no patience for deniers anymore so decided not to bother.

I'm leaning in the same direction. What's strange is how even though Donald Trump's government has agreed (see The Fourth National Climate Assessment) that climate change is real and will be both costly and destructive, the deniers maintain the party line. One of the supposed attributes of conservatives is their decisiveness; of what value is it when they have been so decisively wrong on so many social and health issues? As the saying goes: They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
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Post by Trailrunner on Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:03 pm

Some folks simply cannot handle fear. Fear of people unlike them. Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Some people have no coping skills. It is a very scary topic. I feel sorry for them but I have no desire to debate the topic with them, it's too late for that.
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Post by slainte39 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:22 pm

rvanparys wrote:The climate has been changing for millions of years... Reducing man made pollution is a noble effort but like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket.

Rivers have been flooding for millions of years. With your attitude dikes and levees that has been built little by little, over the years,
were a waste of time and money because it wasn't done quickly and because there is still some flooding created by nature and the flooding problem isn't completely resolved.
People like you are frozen in the sands of time and completely inert. Don't walk too far either to the east or the west as you may fall off the planet.

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Post by cypress on Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:27 am

When you read the above it makes you want how relevant is the direction of the present US government.

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Post by spacedebris on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:07 am

What if climate change is a big hoax and we create a world with cleaner air, renewable energy and healthier oceans all for nothing? /s

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Post by ltollefs on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:29 am

I don't understand where the down-side is to having a planet with cleaner air, renewable energy and healthier oceans. Do you? And if ACD is a hoax, but for a select few in the USA, the entire planet is in on it. How do you propose to expose it?
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Post by CanuckBob on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:35 am

Green house gases are causing climate changes in decades instead of what used to take centuries...….no doubt about that.

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Post by Trailrunner on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:40 am

Wait until all the Artic ice has melted. Predicted to be 2018/2019 maybe 2020. We ain't seen nothing yet.


Last edited by Trailrunner on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by spacedebris on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:40 am

Itollefs wrote:I don't understand where the down-side is to having a planet with cleaner air, renewable energy and healthier oceans. Do you? And if ACD is a hoax, but for a select few in the USA, the entire planet is in on it. How do you propose to expose it?

The /s is so people don't miss the sarcasm. My point is that doing the things we would need to do to address CC would be beneficial to all humans and other animals as well as the planet in general. So even if this CC is not caused by humans, we will all be better off anyway by recognizing that this is a closed system and we can't just crap in our food bowl without consequence.

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Post by Trailrunner on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:45 am

Exactly.
We have pooped our nest for too long now and the piper has arrived for payment.
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Post by ltollefs on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:00 am

spacedebris wrote:The /s is so people don't miss the sarcasm.

And still, I did. My apologies, I don't handle subtle very well in the morning. Everything else, I'm onboard with.
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Post by CanuckBob on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:04 am

Climate change is not "caused" by human activity, it is "accelerated and magnified" by human activity.

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Post by ltollefs on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:35 am

ACD is caused by human activity. Language that might mitigate the emotional impact of the current climate imbroglio only serves to confuse, and the Right has sown enough confusion. The exact nature of this bus to hell is irreverent, we're on it and there's no one at the wheel.
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Post by CanuckBob on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:41 am

We will have to disagree. Climate change occurs with or without humans. There have been many ice ages and temperature increases long before humans arrived on the scene.

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Post by ltollefs on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:49 am

I did not mention climate change in my previous post. As for the rest, thank you, Mr. Obvious.
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Post by CanuckBob on Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:01 am

That's Captain Obvious to you...…..

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Post by gringal on Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:48 am

As I see it, we are dealing with two semi-connected issues.  
Yes, climate change happens over geologic time whether there are humans on the planet or not.
Some human activities may accelerate climate change (this seems to be the major area of disagreement).
Yes, we humans have polluted our air, water and general environment.
The last can be addressed by pouring a goodly amount of money and time on the problem.  IMHO, that is what we should focus on.

I love the argument against it which is, essentially, the right to "keep our hard earned money" when referring to people making over ten million bucks a year.  Must be working their fuzzy little tails off and it would be a real hardship to pay more taxes.  I imagine some of them might be responsible for some of the problems of pollution.
Ya think?
lol!

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Post by ltollefs on Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:33 am

Here's a good analysis on how our seemingly informed opinions can be installed without our realizing. I've read the book and recommend it highly.  Don't let the 2010 publishing date put you off, it's all still very relevant...

Merchants of Doubt by Naomi Oreskes

Here Ms. Oreskes is interviewed...

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