Solar Power SOB

by CheenaGringo Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:20 pm

It is my impression that solar power has been enjoying similar success to that NOB from reports on various forums. An interesting article from today states:
"The explosive growth of solar power -- a new rooftop system was installed every four minutes in 2013 -- has utility companies pushing in several states to scale back what they call unfair rate advantages that solar users have long received.

The debate centers on net metering, which requires utility companies to credit customers for solar energy that they generate in excess of their own usage. The credits were part of financial incentives to invest in solar energy.

Policies for net metering, which is used in 43 states, vary from state to state, but most credits are set at the local retail price for electricity. That bothers utilities, which contend that the retail price is set too high, resulting in excessive credits to solar users. Utilities want credits set by wholesale prices, which are much lower than retail.

"The principal issue is making sure everyone is paying a fair price for what they use," said Ted Carver, CEO and chairman of Edison International, the parent company of utility Southern California Edison. "We don't care where or who we buy the power from, but it should be purchased at the wholesale price."

But some experts say the mere fact that utilities—which generate $360 billion a year in energy sales—are battling with solar indicates the threat it now poses to them. ............

Given the lost profits and cost issues that CFE has experienced for years, one has to wonder if they will pay attention to the trend NOB and revise their policies?

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/power-play-utilities-want-solar-users-pay-2D11887782

by David Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:26 pm

Here we are credited in kW hours not $, so the point is moot. Solar users are on the lowest rate since we buy the least. Most gringos not on solar are paying the highest rates in Mexico. Rates in Mexico range from less than a Peso/kWhr to over 4. There's no rate structure in the US that compares on either end of the price spectrum.

by Jim W Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:43 pm

NOB we generated 20,432 KWH used 9250 and received a whopping $327.00 credit against 2014 bill. My December bill was $24.00 including taxes, meter reading! Generated 1450 kwh, used 860kwh. Credit builds thru the year for next year here!

Seems as though Mexico learns from US on these issues, tune in next year for possible modification to solar costs!

by Jim W Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:59 pm

David, what is the cost SOB to install solar for you to keep your home at the lowest rate per KWH?

NOB solar is complicated, as there are huge tax credit issues. In our case, we installed a 36 panel system, guaranteed to generate 19,000 to 21,000 kwh annually in Casa Grandee, AZ. Cost was 20 year lease @ $125.00 per month for 20 years, or $13,000.00 cash. ROI shows approx. 8 year roi for cash!

by zenwoodle Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:00 pm

What David said is correct and may become more of a model for the US and Canada rather than the other way around.
If you generate more than you use in Mexico,the credit rolls over into the next month, but must be used within 12 months.
No money is ever returned to you in Mexico for unused electricity.
That is why you need to configure your system to create slightly less than your needs and not create so much that CFE benefits and you do not. Beer

by Jim W Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:25 pm

Not sure I understand the logic Zen! They give us 3 cents per kwh generated, and sell it for 10 cents, plus the more solar customers there are the lower the investment in generating power for distribution, and growth of population.

by zenwoodle Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:55 pm

In Mexico, they do not "give" you any money, you merely give them Kwh and receive a Kwh credit.
The "value" of that Kwh for CFE is dependent on who they subsequently sell that Kwh to, and the "value" to you is based on the rate tier at which you are consuming.
Since you are only giving them electricity which you have no need for, then you are consuming at the lowest rate tier.
They are then selling that electricity to someone who is consuming at a higher rate tier than you and therefore CFE is making money off your solar generation.
This differs from the NOB model, where the electric company pays you for excess electricity at a fixed rate and bills you at a fixed rate.
NOB, money changes hands. Here, only Kwh changes hands. Beer

by Jim W Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:08 pm

Not true Zen, at least for me! I think you are misinformed for Arizona! I do not get cash back

Zen, you are misinformed for Arizona, I received a 3 cent per kwh credit, at peak period, power company sells it at 10 cents.

This is my 2nd year on the plan, and I have not received compensation for the 11, 000 kwh delivered to the grid in 2013! I have a $335.00 balance credit from last year!

1

by zenwoodle Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:19 pm

3c per Kwh hour is a monetary credit.
In Mexico we only receive electricity credit.
And if we do not use it, we lose it. Beer

by Intercasa Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:34 pm

What does a solar system cost in the Chapala area? My bills are getting high although I do use AC and heat alot. Bills are 2,000 pesos so perhaps something that generates 500khw every 2 month period?

by David Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:14 am

The current typical cost here is between $5 and 7K. Spencer you could likely get a $5K system and cover you needs. A review of you last 6 CFE bills will tell. Call e2, they are absolutely the best, they use all N. American made equipment. PM me for more details.

by CanuckBob Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:37 am

I use about 900 KW every two months on one meter and was quoted 7K for a system that would generate about 500KW on average to keep me under the DAC. Since I have two separate rental casitas I have decided to go with multiple meters instead.

by Zedinmexico Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:54 am

Unless you have a pool/ multiple water pumps/ old fridge or multiples you can generally get your electric bill down by updating the lighting. Conservative rating with LED bulbs is for 10 watts you will get 60 watts worth of light from the old lightbulbs. CFL bulbs are about 1 to 4 so they do help. Update your lighting before you spend money on panels. Worst bill of the year for most of us is in April/May/June areas where we have many fans running. Last very large house I was able to do 493 KwH for two months with fans running with water pump running on casita meter. When I replaced all pumps on the property (fountain, water, small pond) with newer ones my bill fell way down. Home Depot has nice soft white type LED bulbs made by Phillips which now
doesn't have the metal heatsink on the bottom of them like older LED bulbs. Price has come down to 150/180 pesos. They last forever and look much better than the twisties CFB. LED bulbs are 100%bright when you turn them on and work with dimmers. If you have Halogen lights while they save over 15% over regular bulbs you can do better. Beware of the color of these bulbs same as CFB. 2700 degrees kelvin is the color of a GE 100w soft white lightbulb we all grew up with. Mexican like the more white like of the 5000 degree bulbs. So get the right color bulb for you and stay with the same color or it can look weird.

I am putting up a small solar array that I can take with me as I am not sure I can survive the hot season with my current house as I have more pumps to deal with the hill. Eventually I have run out of things to update to save electricity but going with energy saving devices might save you from having to buy a solar array or paying DAC.

I would like to correct a misconception about CFBs. They do contain a small amount of mercury much less with modern CFB. The amount of electricity that these bulbs save causes the power plants (which mostly burn oil here, they are going to gas eventually) to emit much less mercury
in the air from burning oil which has mercury in it. I buy CFB which have a glass cover over the twisty part of the bulb and offers a little bit of protection. So using CFB bulbs actually in Mexico causes LESS mercury to go in the air from the power plants than what is in the bulb. Now yes
CFB take time to warm up mostly don't work on dimmers and can look very ugly but they do save money and pollution at a very small cost. LED over the next five years will take over this market. Walmart has very good 2700 kelvin twisty type CFL. These are not cheap but I have not had one go bad which I
can't say for the cheap four packs we see everywhere.

So give it a try than do an array if you need to do so. The newer bulbs are much better than they use to be and worth a try if you hated them before.
If you rent rebulb your house and save the old bulbs and take them with you. Bulbs are an investment a very good one.

Z

by CHILLIN Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:43 am

I wonder if CFE has the exclusive right to produce electricity for sale in Mexico? This is a key issue. If private companies could be allowed to supply commercial businesses, factories, apartment buildings this would be interesting. Most likely to be very profitable too - given the poor job CFE is doing at present. In British Columbia, is was a government monopoly for years. For example, you had to get permission to run a water wheel - they deemed that if they were able to run a wire in, you were refused. That monopoly was busted a few years ago, and there is now a boom in micro-hydro projects, many of which would be viable in parts of Mexico - if you are allowed to sell power rather than CFE credits.

by brigitte Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:53 am

Produce I do not know but they seem to have a monopoly on selling it. In the Ithmus in Oaxaca i a lot of electricity is produced via wind machines and there are lots of problems with municipos on which the machines are. A woman from Juchitan told me that the companies are leasing the land from several ejidals and that there is a close that at the end of the 10 years the land belongs to the companies which many villages did not see or understand..it was part of the "small print"..The electricity apparently goes to Oaxaca and not to those villages so some of the villages decided to produce their own electricity and install wind machines..the permit was refused..and this is causing problems .
It is all very political but many towns feel that they are being screwed by CFE, the foreign companies leasing the land and the politicians..Not taking any side and I do not know how true all of this is but there is social unrest because of it and CFE is involved...

by David Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:40 am

The constitutional changes that are opening up PEMEX apply to entire energy sector. So watch for big changes in both Oil & Gas and Electricity.

by David Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:21 pm

Zedinmexico wrote:Unless you have a pool/ multiple water pumps/ old fridge or multiples you can generally get your electric bill down by updating the lighting. Conservative rating with LED bulbs is for 10 watts you will get 60 watts worth of light from the old lightbulbs. CFL bulbs are about 1 to 4 so they do help. Update your lighting before you spend money on panels. Worst bill of the year for most of us is in April/May/June areas where we have many fans running. Last very large house I was able to do 493 KwH for two months with fans running with water pump running on casita meter. When I replaced all pumps on the property (fountain, water, small pond) with newer ones my bill fell way down.

Home Depot has nice soft white type LED bulbs made by Phillips which now doesn't have the metal heatsink on the bottom of them like older LED bulbs. Price has come down to 150/180 pesos. They last forever and look much better than the twisties CFB. LED bulbs are 100%bright when you turn them on and work with dimmers. If you have Halogen lights while they save over 15% over regular bulbs you can do better. Beware of the color of these bulbs same as CFB. 2700 degrees kelvin is the color of a GE 100w soft white lightbulb we all grew up with. Mexican like the more white like of the 5000 degree bulbs. So get the right color bulb for you and stay with the same color or it can look weird.

I am putting up a small solar array that I can take with me as I am not sure I can survive the hot season with my current house as I have more pumps to deal with the hill. Eventually I have run out of things to update to save electricity but going with energy saving devices might save you from having to buy a solar array or paying DAC.

I would like to correct a misconception about CFBs. They do contain a small amount of mercury much less with modern CFB. The amount of electricity that these bulbs save causes the power plants (which mostly burn oil here, they are going to gas eventually) to emit much less mercury in the air from burning oil which has mercury in it. I buy CFB which have a glass cover over the twisty part of the bulb and offers a little bit of protection. So using CFB bulbs actually in Mexico causes LESS mercury to go in the air from the power plants than what is in the bulb. Now yes CFB take time to warm up mostly don't work on dimmers and can look very ugly but they do save money and pollution at a very small cost. LED over the next five years will take over this market. Walmart has very good 2700 kelvin twisty type CFL. These are not cheap but I have not had one go bad which I can't say for the cheap four packs we see everywhere.

So give it a try than do an array if you need to do so. The newer bulbs are much better than they use to be and worth a try if you hated them before. If you rent rebulb your house and save the old bulbs and take them with you. Bulbs are an investment a very good one.

Z

Thanks for the informative post Zed. We changed all the light bulbs we could, installed a more eficient water pump and pool pump, and replaced the fridge. The best we could get to was 700kW/hrs per billing period. Three years ago we installed a 1.7kW PV Solar system. Problem solved. Our CFE bills are now $75-150. BTW, they're easy to move from house to house. No one should have a fear their investment has to stay on the house they're in now.

I've tried the LED bulbs available locally and don't like them except for outside lighting, they're simply not warm enough for indoor, they're 3000K. I'll check out the Philips bulbs the next time I'm at Home Depot.

by zenwoodle Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:50 pm

I bought some led's when I was last at Home Depot in Canada.
They are CREE 2700 soft white. They are 6 watts, and I used them to replace the 40 watt incandescent in my boveda ceiling.
They were priced at $11:00 and they are indistinguishable from the incandescent.
The bulbs which I bought down here where way too white and way too expensive.
They are assembled in the US, so I assume that they are available there also.
My sister will be bringing down more of them when she visits next month, and I will certainly bring more back from my next trip NOB. Beer

by Zedinmexico Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:59 pm

Sorry David you are correct, 3000 is as low as they make LED bulbs sold here. Very common for 2700 CFB. I can live with 3000 but I agree I would prefer 2700..... I am sure as Zen discovered that we probably can get 2700 in US/Can but have not found them here. Will look when I go to Seattle next month. Phillips LED bulbs are 3000 so they won't help you David.
You are even pickier than me laugh out loud. I can tolerate the 3000.

Z

by Jim W Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:23 pm

zenwoodle wrote:3c per Kwh hour is a monetary credit.
In Mexico we only receive electricity credit.
And if we do not use it, we lose it.

Zen, How long to you have to use it or lose it in Mexico? Is it daily? Monthly?

TIA, Jim

by zenwoodle Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:17 pm

You can carry the credit here for 12 months.
The key here, as I see it, is to configure your system so that you still pay CFE a small monthly amount.
If you are creating enough electricity to offset all of your CFE consumption, they still hit you with a minimum bill each month and at the end of the 12 months you will lose the credit from 12 months earlier.
BTW, I learned all this from the folks at E-Sun. It would be to their advantage to sell you more panels, but they choose to make you aware of these little quirks.
Hope this helps Beer

by CheenaGringo Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:32 pm

So if one has been on the DAC rate, I would guess that it would be legit to use that rate in calculating the payback period? When you install solar electric panels, does it still take a full year to get off the DAC rate even though you may be sending KW's back to CFE? I can certainly see Zenwoodle's point of having a properly sized system.

by David Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:19 pm

No, it's instant.

by zenwoodle Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:15 pm

To calculate your payback period it would be more sensible to use the "normal rate".
However, simply looking at the payback period is shortsighted. Look at the savings for a longer period of time 10 - 15 years.
Then you see the real benefit. Beer

by David Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:23 pm

Payback period is meaningless. Look at ROI. You can put your $ in a CD in the US and get what, 1.5%? In Mexico maybe 4%. Put it on your roof and get 15% or more!

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