And you thought the problems with car TIPs was bad...

At least you didn't come here in your boat:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/us-canadian-boaters-left-limbo-mexico-21484091?singlePage=true

Need to merge thread. See post in legal.

espíritu del lago wrote:Need to merge thread. See post in legal.

Which post in legal?  I just did a search for "boat" and "boats" in legal and only came up with one thread from a guy who wants to bring his boat in on a trailer.

it's in local crime reports not legal, which is for members only i believe. the thread was started this am before yours so you won't have to do a major search.

Pedro wrote:it's in local crime reports not legal, which is for members only i believe. the thread was started this am before yours so you won't have to do a major search.

Found it, I am a member, thanks.  But why is it in "Rumors and Crime Reports"?  Here's a first hand report from someone who watched it happen:

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Yes.  My marina was one of the targets.   When I just there doing work on the boat, there was a boat next to me, in the work area, with a problem.  I had the required TIP, the office had a copy and the original was on the boat.  No problems for me. I’m really NOT sure how anyone could have gotten anywhere without a TIP.  We didn’t stop a lot coming down from LA but everyplace we did stop (Ensenada to clear customs, Cabo for fuel and two marinas in Guaymas/San Carlos) each asked for a crew list, passports, my TIP after Ensendada, and my US Coast Guard document.

But I agree with the article.  All this work for lack of a $70.00 TIP (Temporary Import Permit, good for 10 years)?   My marina said 40 guards and 30 auditors showed up like at 8:30am in the morning and did not leave until 6:00am the following morning.  And the comment on frightening people they are trying to get to cruise in Mexico is dead on.  It is sheer stupidity.  But then, SAT (Hacienda or Mexican IRS) nor any other government agency ever lets anyone else know what they are doing.  And even if you get a boat out of the deal, the market is incredibly depressed.  My marina said it was overkill to nth degree. You would think a country that wanted to encourage tourism, we’re in that business, would take on The Dept of Tourism as a partner and stop customs bandits, tax stupidity and immigration stupidity.

On another note, a friend with property in Vallarta told me that that state tore down all real estate signs.  You want a sign?  300 pesos per month per property to let folks know it is for sale.  Hey, they spent a lot of money getting elected.  They need that back.

**************************************

That from a private email to me, hence the no identification of the writer.  And yes, I know, my friend with a valid TIP had no problem, but it seems very heavy-handed for a $70 TIP fee.

I really find this really depressing. I would like to believe that Mexico is just as good a neighbor to the US as Canada is. (Okay, I am a bit of an optimist.) And that Mexico is possibly a more wonderful place to live than the US! (I think so.) And that Mexico has its act together NOW, as opposed to in the past. (Apparently NOT TRUE!) And that Mexico fully realizes how important the tourism industry is. (DUH!) I could go on. I am totally appalled by this development--is Mexico so poor that they have to confiscate boats of legitimate sailors who just happen to be away from their boats??? Tell me where I have to go to protest--this is appalling! No better than piracy IMO. Mexican authorities should be ashamed! Coverage on CNN--"The End of Mexican Tourism"???

Okay, somebody tell me to sit down and shut up. This really--ahem--annoys me. And shames me. I am embarassed to be living here in Mexico where this is going on. This is going to go down as one of those stories that sailors around the world tell and it is appallingly NOT to Mexico's credit. This comes after the story about the people who decided to take a swim off the boat and the boat drifted away--one of the cautionary tales told at anchor. Indeed, this comes right after the stories about Somali pirates, does it not? Children, listen in, and remember that you are NEVER to anchor in any of Mexico's ports.

P.S. Is there going to be a demonstration? Protests? Signs? Count me in. Let's hire a bus. So I get thrown out of the country--creating an international incident--do we have coverage on CNN????

JayBear wrote:Okay, somebody tell me to sit down and shut up.

Okay then, sit down and shut up. I have made that border crossing at sea and, like most boaters, know how important it is to have your papers in order. After reading the full article, I see that those who were in compliance with the rules and regulations had no problem.

I've read a couple of articles about it and that was my take as well, Smartalex.

I'm wondering if a TIP for a boat works like a TIP for a car? As in, if you leave the country, you're expected to exit with your vehicle (car, or boat, in this case). I can imagine a lot of people parking their boats in Mexican marinas long-term and going back to their home countries for the "anti-season". Then returning to their pleasure craft at their convenience. (But that's just my imaginings....could be way off base, I know nothing about that lifestyle.)

Anybody know that detail? Would storing your boat here long-term while you've left the country be in violation and out of compliance? Didn't see it mentioned in any of the crack journalism I've read.

A quote of a post made on this very forum earlier today: "The reason is that if you get turned down at the get go, the applicant might go underground in Mexico, which would be very easy to do." Is this not a strong indicator of the entitlement that some Gringos feel with respect to living or traveling in Mexico??? When I read about owners of "modest yachts" of 40' in length and up, I have to wonder if their thinking may be similar to owners of $500K to $1M motorhomes who park in WallyWorld parking lots because it is free?

Jaybear calm down, I wonder why you think people it is terrible for people to sail to Mexico without the proper papers??Tey that in the States or anywhere else. The articles says that hundred had no problems as they had the right papers.
The shame is on these people wwho are not bothereing with the right documentation and think they can do whatever they want in a foreign country. You should be ashame for these people no Mexico.
You know what happens to Mexicans who cross the border without the poper papers and get caught? They get arrested put in jail and deported, fair is fair.

Thanks, Brigitte, I am fanning my brow and taking my pills and drinking my Scotch and calming down, and I do absolutely agree that one needs to have and wave about the proper permits, but what I am reading is that the authorities were confiscating boats when the owners were not aboard to provide the proper documents--were the boat owners negligent in not nailing the forms to their boats, or what is happening here? From what I read, it is not a lack of proper permits, but confiscation of boats when the owners were not aboard to provide the docs. What am I missing here???

Jaybear:

Please stop and consider the media sources of most articles written on the subject! I have done a good deal of searching after reading the original posted article and haven't satisfied myself that any accounts are unbiased and without an agenda.

Smartalex wrote:

JayBear wrote:Okay, somebody tell me to sit down and shut up.

Okay then, sit down and shut up. I have made that border crossing at sea and, like most boaters, know how important it is to have your papers in order. After reading the full article, I see that those who were in compliance with the rules and regulations had no problem.

Richard, the guy who publishes Latitude 38 (for 30 year or so) had his catamaran impounded. He was not violating the rules. The officials couldn't find his HIN *the hull identification number* which is required to be visible by all ocean going vessels.

Anyway, Im glad I don't have a boat anymore...

I agree with Cheenagringo. The Latitude 38 guy seems to have taken some latitude with the facts. When the smoke clears in a few days, I think the picture will be a lot different than the one presented by L-38 and copied by the US media.

Rolly, I love all you have done, but this time I have to disagree with you, I'm afraid the Mexican Gov. has messed up big time!

People have had their boat impounded, meaning they can't it take anywhere, i.e. sail anywhere for three months, until the mex gov. decides whether to sell the boat or to release it. Many sailors come here to cross the pacific, via the "puddle jump". You have a small window to do this within a season, basically you can cross the pacific to the south pacific from Jan. to march.

Not to mention that armed marines checked documents. I will come clean, I am a former sailor. We sailed the entire Mex, Coast -- every port was different,mexico is a formal place, which we always respected. However, sailing the coast, is different from driving a car across the border.

Link to Lat' 38 article.

Can the boat owner not live on the boat(all the time) when in Mexico?

Can the boat owner leave Mexico and leave the boat in Mexico?

arbon wrote:Link to Lat' 38 article.

Can the boat owner not live on the boat(all the time) when in Mexico?

Can the boat owner leave Mexico and leave the boat in Mexico?

No, the boat is impounded and so the boat cannot be boarded nor can it leave the port in which it's docked never mind the country.  Boats have been put on the impound list because the armed officials couldn't find the HIN number, even when it was there.  They were also put on the list if the marina didn't have a copy of your official documents (this was never a requirement in the past).

The Lat38 guy had his own boat impounded and he is the biggest advocate of mexico there ever was. And yes, his paperwork was in order, but he just happened to be away from his boat at the time the officials paid his boat a visit. Apparently, they didn't know where to look for the HIN, which is found in different places depending of the model of the boat.

Furthermore, to go from country to country by boat you need a "Zarpe" from the last country you were in. In Mexico sometimes this needed going from port to port, depending on the port captain. So no you're not going anywhere if your boat is on the impound list. Would really suck if it's your home as well.

This on Lat'38 'Lectronic Latitude.

Foreign Boat Impoundment Story Goes Mainstream

January 10, 2014 – Mexico

If you're tired of reading about the foreign boat impoundment fiasco in Mexico, you can imagine how sick we are of writing about it. But we'll soldier on until there is a resolution. The following are our comments to an AP news story that has appeared in Yahoo, the Washington Post, Fox News, MSN, and all over the place.

1. U.S. and Canadian boats are not left "in limbo." If impounded, they can be restricted to the dock to up to four months . . . at which point the Mexican government could decide to release, fine or confiscate them.

2. "Storming" the marinas wasn't an accurate characterization of what happened in late November. While AGACE agents arrived with marines armed with machine guns and a prison bus, and worked all through the night, the auditors were unfailingly polite. Indeed, they often told boat owners everything was fine, which is why some boat owners were so surprised to later find their boat on the impound list after all.

3. Big boats have been impounded, too. In just a short circle of our boat on Banderas Bay, five boats worth a total of more than $5 million have been impounded.

4. A Temporary Import permit does not prove ownership, a boat document does that. A TIP does not guarantee Mexico that a boat owner won't leave Mexico without their boat. Indeed, TIPs were created specifically to give foreign boat owners a legal means to leave Mexico without their boat. Having a TIP does not make it illegal to sell one's boat in Mexico, although there are legal guidelines that have to be followed.

5. It is indeed the responsibility of boat owners to comply with Mexican laws, which are easy to comply with. The problem was that if a boat owner wasn't aboard his or her boat, the auditors couldn't see some of the information they needed to see, and their default was to put most of these boats on the impound list. Even if the auditors were shown the necessary information when they visited again 10 days later, the boat stayed on the impound list. In the case of the marina we're in, AGACE discovered that 52 of the 53 boats they'd put on the list were in fact in compliance with Mexican law. Alas, they are still on the impound list and may be unable to move for four months.

In the last 17 years, our catamaran Profligate has been cleared into virtually every port and marina in Mexico without a problem. Despite their being no change in the law with regard to TIPs, she was nonetheless impounded because nobody was aboard to show auditors things like the documentation number in the hull, engine serial numbers, and point out she's a custom-built boat and therefore doesn't have a brand or model name. Unfortunate and ridiculous.

6. In one case, a rep for the owner of a number of boats showed AGACE agents the same information for all the boats in his control. Most were not put on the impound list, but one inexplicably was.

7. A TIP is not a tax, it's a permit.

In the case of the AP story that appeared on the ABC International news site, the reader comments were devastating, citing a list of alleged abuses that would tend to make one's hair stand on end. Such as this one from Lou Kief: "In 1984 we came to Mexico on an old wooden sailboat we had rebuilt and spent the hurricane season in Puerto Vallarta's only marina at the time. We did all our paperwork to the letter, were good visitors, and waited for the weather to be favorable for us to continue our trip to the Panama Canal. While in Mexico, our "Temporary Import Permit" — which is issued for one year at that time — was set to expire. In bold letters at the bottom of the permit it said that it could be renewed at the port captain's office for an additional year for no fee. When I went to the port captain's office to get my free renewal, he told me it would cost $600 US dollars! I showed him the print where it said the renewal is free on the page. His reply: 'It is free but I'm going to make you go back to the United States to get it for free there. If you want it renewed here it will cost you $600 USD — that's how much you will spend on airfare to go to San Diego, hotels, meals.' It was extortion plain and simple, something officials in Mexico have been very good at for a long, long time."

Oh geez, just the kind of stories Mexico and fans of Mexico don't need to hear. Two points: 1) There weren't any Temporary Import Permits in 1984; and 2) 1984 was a long, long time ago, and Mexican port captains — and other civil servants — have become much, much more professional. While we're not saying bribes and corruption have disappeared in Mexico, we don't believe it's anything like it used to be.

There was also a different story in the Orange County Register:

1. Auditors weren't coming looking specifically for HINs (which are hull identification numbers), but primarily for Temporary Import Permits, document numbers in the hull and such. Unfortunately, the Mexican officials don't realize that HINs are poor indicators of anything, as boats built in the U.S. before 1974 don't have them, nor do most boats from many countries in Europe. In many other cases, the HIN number was ground out when the boat hull was sanded for repainting. Additionally, many hull numbers, even by companies such as Catalina, were inscribed with cheap engraving tools. As such, it's easy for anybody to put any hull number on any boat. That's why the document number permanently affixed to the hull is the U.S. Coast Guard standard.

2. The quotes from Juan Hussong, our friend from Ensenada, made it appear that he and the owners of impounded boats are at cross purposes: "Juan Hussong, a Mexican national with homes in both San Diego and Ensenada, had his boat inspected and cleared during the audit. He argues that the boat owners are responsible for the correct documentation. The marina managers are worried because they think they are going to lose customers, but honestly, it’s a new government and we have a new president, and they are trying to make things legal."

We agree with Juan that owners are responsible for correct documentation, which is why we and the overwhelming majority of foreign boat owners have it. It's so easy and inexpensive to get, why wouldn't anybody have it? The problem was that if nobody was aboard to show auditors evidence of compliance, the boat was put on the impound list — and stayed their even if the auditors were later shown the evidence within the prescribed time.

Hussong is also right about the new president and attitude toward tax collection in Mexico. Mexico has long had one of the lowest tax collection rates in the world, and the abuses are rampant. But the thing is, the abuses are primarily with regard to income and real estate taxes. Unlike the fateful assumption made by AGACE, cruisers sailing around in Mexico with a TIP are not tax cheats.

What's next? One would hope that the tremendous negative publicity will help resolve the issue quickly. AGACE has sent most of the impounded boat's TIPs to Banjercito for verification, and is soon going to learn that they are not fraudulent, and the owners of the impounded boats are in Mexico legally and don't owe any tax. Hopefully AGACE will swallow their pride, with a big help from Tourism and others, and the boats will be released.

Sometimes, however, Mexican agencies can be stubborn. As such, there is no guarantee that AGACE won't respond by hitting all the other marinas in Mexico, such as the three big ones in La Paz, the three in Mazatlan, two more big ones in the Vallarta area, as well as Barra, Ixtapa and others. If they do, and they heed the same standards as they did auditing boats in the first eight marinas, there could soon be more than 1,000 foreign boats impounded in Mexico.

The Register article notes that Mary Baker, owner of the Mary Conlin Company in Newport Beach, which specializes in boat documentation services, is advising clients not to go to Mexico at this time. Rafael Alcantara, Harbormaster at Riviera Nayarit in La Cruz, encourages U.S. mariners to come to Mexico, noting that AGACE hasn't conducted a raid since late November.

We at Latitude 38 aren't giving any advice. Given all the negative publicity, we can't imagine that AGACE and Mexico would double down on this blunder. Then again, it's unimaginable that they ever made the blunder in the first place. After all, as we pointed out, cruisers are Mexico's greatest goodwill ambassadors. To have so severely punished innocent goodwill ambassadors has been a disaster.

The 32nd biennial San Diego to Vallarta Yacht Race is slated for March 13-21, and so far there are 22 superb entries. Presumably most of whom will stay for MEXORC, an event the Mexican government usually pours millions into. Given what's happened, and what might happen, it's unclear if entries will drop out or what. We hope the whole mess is resolved before then, and that Mexico starts a road back to redemption with a great Vallarta Race and a great MEXORC.

What about the Ha-Ha? We expect there will be a 21st Annual Ha-Ha at the end of October, but only because we expect this fiasco will be long over by then. Obviously we would have no interest in luring anyone to Mexico if we felt there was any significant chance their boat would be recklessly impounded or confiscated.

What to do if your boat is in Mexico now? Given the terrible publicity the first raid has generated, we can't imagine there will be others. But you never know. If might be cheap insurance to put copies of all your documents and TIP, as well as directions to the document number in your hull, and the HIN number — assuming your boat was ever given one — in a plastic bag and tape it to your lifelines. We know it sounds crazy, but these are crazy times, and others have decided to do it.

- latitude / richard

Thanks Arbon.

Perhaps in the big picture this whole fiasco revolves around drugs, cartels and the use of illegally documented vessels to transport drugs back and forth across the border. Round them all up and see what shakes out?

No, CanuckBob it has to do with a new tax agency called AGACE. They think that people on boats are tax cheats.

Most people on boats are retired, not running drugs. If you've ever sailed the Baja coast upwind, referred to as "the Baja Bash", you will know that a sailboat is not your best form of transport to be doing that.

And according to Richard, your boat is not "in Limbo". However, if not being able to use your boat for three months during the sailing season, while the officials make up their mind whether to fine, confiscate or release your boat, is not having your boat "in Limbo", then I'm not sure what the definition of "in limbo" is.

From the Guadalajara Reporter:

http://www.theguadalajarareporter.com/news/news/international/43358-boaters-upset-at-mexican-government-clampdown

CanuckBob wrote:Perhaps in the big picture this whole fiasco revolves around drugs, cartels and the use of illegally documented vessels to transport drugs back and forth across the border. Round them all up and see what shakes out?

Could be, but to do this to hundreds of honest travelers who will go back home, with or without their boats, and tell everyone they know to never ever come here?   This makes sense to anyone?