Rose on TOB: Dispelling the Rumors about Jocotepec THIS is the Truth

FWIW, I've been here for 12 years, speak Spanish quite fluently, and frankly I have heard more stories blown all out of proportion than I care to count. This would include reports from the media NOB. The Canadian newspapers chose to lump several deaths together for many months after they had happened. They were not connected, did not happen in the same locations, and two of the deaths were caused by kids getting drunk or high on holidays. The cause of death for one (hit by a car while drunk)was confirmed by both the Canadian and Mexican pathologists. This, of course was not reported in the paper.
Here in Mexico, I once heard that a local business owner had been shot and or stabbed, there were bad guys running all over the neighborhood, and one was left hanging in a tree. The actual fact of the matter was that the bomberos were doing a simulation as part of their training. Nothing happened.
The simple fact is this. You cannot try to fit together bad information and attempt to make any kind of sense out of conflicting reports.
Unless you speak reasonably good Spanish, whatever the maid, or gardener or their relatives say is not going to mean jack squat to you. Crime scenes, or criminal activities don't translate well through hand gestures and a few words.
Seems to me that nobody who actually lives in Jocotepec has come on here to either confirm or refute the claims being made. There are no eyewitness reports, nothing in the papers other than the meth lab, and yes, the Chapala incident was duly reported in the papers as well. There are not even any photos taken on cell phone cameras. Certainly if all this were true some enterprising person would have photos plastered all over the internet by now. Where are the pictures of the banners?
Time to put this to bed until further information comes out, or not.

nothing in the papers other than the meth lab,

Please provide Spanish newspaper link...

Por favor,

Espiritu

espíritu del lago wrote:

nothing in the papers other than the meth lab,

Please provide Spanish newspaper link...

Por favor,

Espiritu

http://impreso.milenio.com/node/8997441

Thank you,
Espiritu

raqueteer wrote:FWIW, I've been here for 12 years, speak Spanish quite fluently, and frankly I have heard more stories blown all out of proportion than I care to count. This would include reports from the media NOB. The Canadian newspapers chose to lump several deaths together for many months after they had happened. They were not connected, did not happen in the same locations, and two of the deaths were caused by kids getting drunk or high on holidays. The cause of death for one (hit by a car while drunk)was confirmed by both the Canadian and Mexican pathologists. This, of course was not reported in the paper.
Here in Mexico, I once heard that a local business owner had been shot and or stabbed, there were bad guys running all over the neighborhood, and one was left hanging in a tree. The actual fact of the matter was that the bomberos were doing a simulation as part of their training. Nothing happened.
The simple fact is this. You cannot try to fit together bad information and attempt to make any kind of sense out of conflicting reports.
Unless you speak reasonably good Spanish, whatever the maid, or gardener or their relatives say is not going to mean jack squat to you. Crime scenes, or criminal activities don't translate well through hand gestures and a few words.
Seems to me that nobody who actually lives in Jocotepec has come on here to either confirm or refute the claims being made. There are no eyewitness reports, nothing in the papers other than the meth lab, and yes, the Chapala incident was duly reported in the papers as well. There are not even any photos taken on cell phone cameras. Certainly if all this were true some enterprising person would have photos plastered all over the internet by now. Where are the pictures of the banners?
Time to put this to bed until further information comes out, or not.

Amen

The rumor mill just keeps on grinding away... it's a perpetual motion machine. If we could harness that energy we could offset the energy crunch. Lizzy

FWIW, I've been here for 12 years, speak Spanish quite fluently, and frankly I have heard more stories blown all out of proportion than I care to count. This would include reports from the media NOB. The Canadian newspapers chose to lump several deaths together for many months after they had happened. They were not connected, did not happen in the same locations, and two of the deaths were caused by kids getting drunk or high on holidays. The cause of death for one (hit by a car while drunk)was confirmed by both the Canadian and Mexican pathologists. This, of course was not reported in the paper.
Here in Mexico, I once heard that a local business owner had been shot and or stabbed, there were bad guys running all over the neighborhood, and one was left hanging in a tree. The actual fact of the matter was that the bomberos were doing a simulation as part of their training. Nothing happened.

Who told you this? Expats or Mexicans? That's funny. Awfully funny

The simple fact is this. You cannot try to fit together bad information and attempt to make any kind of sense out of conflicting reports.
Unless you speak reasonably good Spanish, whatever the maid, or gardener or their relatives say is not going to mean jack squat to you.

de acuerdo...pero en este causo, mis amiguitos viven unas casas de la actividad y se fueron por unos dias de vacaciones porque tienen miedo. Por eso, no se nada mas despues de domingo pasasdo cuando tenia chance de hablar con la senora, quien me llamo...fueron el viernes para quedarse afuera de Jocotepec, regresaron el domingo a su casa por mas ropa. no se si tienen camera para tomar fotos de las narcomantas. problamente no pensaron en esa porque estan asustados. Si la gente, extranjero, no quieren creerme, es su propria decision. me siente que tal ves se fueron la policia para investigar el narco lab pero mientres, no estaban y los narcos siguieron de poner letreros y asustar el pueblo cerca de la plaza. Estaba yo, escribiendo aqui para saber si alguien que vive alla puede informar me mas pero los gringos no saben nada! Creen que nada esta pasando. Tontos. Mejor visitar una pagina de twitter. (disculpa, mi laptop es diferente y todavia no se como cambiar el idioma en espanol)

And besides that, here's your Jocoinforma pagina:
http://www.jocoinforma.com/1noticias/la-seguridad-algo-importante-en-jocotepec

the first comment below the article posted July 7th and several following. July 25th comment regarding new security cameras being installed in Jocotepec:

carmen / julio 25, 2011
Y con las camaritas sr presidente ya se pudo identificar a los delincuentes de los secuestros ocurridos en dias pasados???, por favor!, gastese el dinero en elementos buenos de seguridad, camaritas!!! por piedad!!!!, no quiera dar atole con el dedo, y ya solicite la entrada de fuerzas militares, por favor, haga algo por su pueblo, el pueblo ya hizo por usted y se le ha agrandado su bolsillo, ahora devuelvale poco lo que el pueblo le ha dado, la gente tiene miedo, no se esconda como avestruz y actue.

With the cameras the presidente can identify the delinquents after the kidnappings occurred in the past days?

spend the money for good security, cameras!!! for mercy!!! Solicite the strength of the military, please, do this for your pueblo

One of the problems that the pueblo is complaining of is that the cameras aren't working yet.

Actually Chapalagringa, that was not the page I was referring to. I was referring to the jocotepeckers forum.
Yes the first story which you found funny was info from expats.
Cameras are a deterrent. Clearly if there were truly serious problems the army would have been called in as they have been in the past, several times.
From what I understood of your post, your friends were scared and left. They were too shocked or scared to take photos. Understandable. However where are the photos of the so called menacing signs?

Sooo, let's calm down and see if any other members of the Joco community can actually come forward, corroborate your friends story and provide photographs of the signs.

I frequently see Gringos speaking about taking photos of offenders be it transitos on the take or events such as being discussed. Before everyone gets camera crazed, they may wish to take a step back and think about this type of action. There is no question that many members of various police agencies are beholding to the cartels. Should you happen to start taking incriminating photos of someone connected in any way with the cartels, you could possibly face unwanted consequences. Warzone photojournalists often experience shortened lives!

As we may be busy bodies & want to see the evidence with our own eyes this is very wise advice yuri. Now a days technology can pinpoint where the photo was taken and from who's camera. No thanks.

Sounds like pretty good advice, Yuri.
It would be a bit like telling the guy, "I'm going to report you to the police! Right now!" L

I guess it depends on where you are and who you're talking to. If it's a local transito, in town, take the photo. A couple of heavily armed guards in the middle of nowhere, you might want to cooperate.

@chapalagringa, that data is called EXIF data which would prove your claim, and provide GPS positioning.

Chapalagringa - thanks for the link to jocoinforma. I don't speak Spanish so I had to use Google Translate - a bit garbled but I believe I got the gist. The articles don't give any hint of problems, but the comments have a different tone. I read the July 21 story about the council receiving cheques for two proposed health centres. The comments below the article are very interesting. The Spanish-speaking residents of Jocotepec sound upset and scared. They're not buying into the "nothing's going on" line. Me neither.

yuri wrote:I frequently see Gringos speaking about taking photos of offenders be it transitos on the take or events such as being discussed. Before everyone gets camera crazed, they may wish to take a step back and think about this type of action. There is no question that many members of various police agencies are beholding to the cartels. Should you happen to start taking incriminating photos of someone connected in any way with the cartels, you could possibly face unwanted consequences. Warzone photojournalists often experience shortened lives!

Very good advice. I wouldn't even take photos of the local transit cops, either. You still have no idea what kind of connections someone has. Also, I would think that doing so would just make you more likely to be a target in the future.

Traveller wrote:Chapalagringa - thanks for the link to jocoinforma. I don't speak Spanish so I had to use Google Translate - a bit garbled but I believe I got the gist. The articles don't give any hint of problems, but the comments have a different tone. I read the July 21 story about the council receiving cheques for two proposed health centres. The comments below the article are very interesting. The Spanish-speaking residents of Jocotepec sound upset and scared. They're not buying into the "nothing's going on" line. Me neither.

http://www.jocoinforma.com/politica/el-h-ayuntamiento-de-jocotepec-recibe-cheque-del-seguro-popular#comments


names of persons kidnapped:

manuel jimenez o / julio 22, 2011
señor presidente municipal de jocotepec con repecto ha los secuestros en jocotepec yo quisiera saber cuantos avisos mas requiere despues del señor asecinado sigifredo loza ( alias el serillo)y estos hombres ya secuestrados beto navarra y su hermano se requiere que le pase algo a usted para hacer caso, que necesita usted para poner ornen en jocotepec de antemano usted sabe que la salida de elemento de seguridad publica el director anterior tiene que ver mucho , si usted ya no puede coe este caso paselo a las autoridades del estado
antes que el pueblo tome cartas en el asunto, sus elemento de policia y usted lo sabe y el pueblo tambien en ves de darnos confianza dan sesconfianza , por que ves de reportar un robo no la pensamos o un secuestro por sabemos que de ahi sale la informa y pone en alerta a las persos desordenas o ladrones mario chavez por favor no dejes que se salga de control tu gente tu pueblo pon atencion a esto mi pregun es si el amane muerto quien sigue, nos indinariamos de mi parte pasariamos al estado a pedir ayuda ya que tu no puedes con el´paque as pensado si el pueblo empiza hacer justicia con sus propias manos y disculpa que lo diga a ty presidente tu pueblo esta acargo de ti mario por favor quie lea este msaje agaselo saber gracias.

I think Louerdes says it all, very paraphrased...including names of person kidnapped & his brother, Sr(presidente) how much more needs to take place, a massacre or something before you do something, she pleads for him to take action:

LOUERDES GARCIA L. / julio 23, 2011
SI SEÑOR MARIO CHAVEZ USTED SE DIRA NO ES NECESARIO TRAER EL EJEECITO HA JOCOTEPEC POR QUE EN DONDE SEA HAY SECUESTROS EN TODAS PARTES DE LA REPUBLICA, POR QUE NO ES UNA PRUEBA SUFICIENTE EL ECHO QUE EN UN SOLO MES TENGAMOS EN JOCOTEPEC UNA PERSONA LEVANTADA O SECUESTRADA Y QUE DESPUES APARESCA MUTILADA , Y LUEGO UN UNOS DIAS DESPUES EN MISMO JOCOTEPEC OTRO SECUESTRO A UNAS PERSONAS MUY QUERIDAS LOS NAVARROS PRIMERO A UNA Y POR GRACIA DE DIOS ESCAPO PERO NO QUEDANDO A GUSTO LOS SECUESTRADORES O ES MEJOR DECIRLO VECINOS DE JOCOTEPEC POR QUE SABES Q ES MISMA GENTE DE JOCO LA QUE ESTA SECUESTRANDO REGRESAN EN AFAN DE BURLA Y SE LLEVAN DE LA MISMA FAMILIA AL OTRO HERMANO CONOCIDO COMO BETO NAVARRO, PERO SEÑOR PRESIDENTE SABES QUE ESO NO ES PRUEBA SUFICIENTE PARA PEDIR REFUERZOS ESPECIALIZADOS EN SECUESTROS, USTED REQUIERE DE UNOS CUANTOS ASECINATOS MAS Y OTROS CUANDOS SECUESTROS MAS, POR QUE HA DE DECIR USTED Q PARA TRAER EL EJERCITO O ALGO ASI SE REQUIERE DE UNA Y MUY GRANDE RAZON COMO DESASTRE O UNA MASACRE O OLGO ASI, SEÑOR NO SE LA TOME PERSONAL SIMPLEMENTE SABEMOS QUE LA SEGURIDAD DE LAS FAMILIAS DE JOCOTEPEC DEPENDEN DE USTED Y SU VALIOSO CUERPO DE POLICIAS QUE POR ALGO LOS ESCOGISTE A CADA UNO DE ELLOS, Y FELICITACIONES A TY Y TU ESPOSA LAURA POR SU ECESOR POLITICO LUZ REYNOSO Y LAS AMISTADES QUE TE PUESO ELLA COMO EL DIRECTOR DE AGUA POTABLE POR DECIRLO DIRECTOR PERO SABESMOS QUE ELLA ES LA NUMERO UNO AHI, ELLA DICE QUE SE HACE Y QUE NO SE HACE ESTA MUY AGRADECIDA ELLA CON EL DIRECTOR POR TODO EL OPOYO Q LE HA DADO A ELLA HA LUZ,POR ESO ESTA SU GRAN AMIGO Y ATES EX ACESOR POLITICO DE LUZ REYNOSO EL ESTA DE DIRECTOR PERO EL ESTARA A LAS ORDENES DE ELLA PERO NO DE TY MARIO LA AMISTAD ES CON LOS REYNOSO Y NO LE IMPORTA NADA POLITICO NI EL MUNICIPIO AL SEÑOR DIRECTOR YO SE QUE ATY SI, FELICIDADES DE TODOS MODOS MARIO CHAVEZ YO TUBE EL DIGUSTO DE CONOCER Y PLATICAR CON EL SEÑOR DIRECTOR ANGEL GARCIA LOPEZ PERO SON TUS DESICIONES PRESIDENTE PERO NUNCA PROMETAS LO QUE NO VAS A CUMPLIR DIJISTE EN CAMPAÑA YO TRABAJO CON GENTE DE JOCOTEPEC DEL MUNICIPIO PLATICA LA GENTE UNOS CORRETEAN LA LIEBRE Y OTRO LA ALCANZAN SIN CORRER MI PREGUNTA ES Y LA GENTE QUE TE APOYO VERDADERAMENTE EN CAPAÑA DONDE LA DEJASTE PERO FELICITACIONES MARIO CHAVEZ ESTAS EN TU PAPEL DE PRESIDENTE MUNICIPAL.

and yesterday, It looks like the presidente doesn't have time to attend to the pueblo, he's very busy in the USA playing while we're living in fear.

mara / julio 27, 2011
parese que al precidente no tiene tiempo de atender al pueblo el esta muy ocupado en estados unidos jugando fut..mientras que nosotros vivimos con miedo. el muy contento gastando el dinero del pueblo no va a ser nada el deveria estar al pendiente de las cosas pero no.. prefiere no saver el muy sonriente mientras la familia esta sufriendo …. bravo precidente que calidad humana tienes!!!!

Every comment is pleading the presidente to do something and they're holding him to his campaign promises. They're tired of the robbing, kidnapping and drugs. They are tired of the police involved in crimes. One said that she is no longer selling comidas/food to his secretaries. They are afraid.

As many on both boards have stated, at this point expats are NOT involved. I hope the changes that Rose reported are true and good. Interesting that none of the persons commenting seem to know anything about the changes with the comendante. One comment even asked about what was going on?

Easy there girl... yer gonna run outta paste...

hockables wrote:Easy there girl... yer gonna run outta paste...

BAHAHAHHAHA!!

hockables wrote:Easy there girl... yer gonna run outta paste...

Ok......now you made me spew my rum & coke. Good one Hocks.

You're on the roll, Hock. Snicker Lizzy

Someone owes me a Jameson for that one...

Well said Hock

The latest from my maid, yes a valid source, one guy was killed, apparently some narco. There were, as far as she knows 2 kidnappings, however the rumors are now flying so far and so fast that people are now saying someone from the Raquet was also kidnapped, at which point in the discussion, both of us started laughing, and have both attributed most of it to unsubstantiated rumor.

No word of menacing signs at all, still no photos of said menacing signs, complete with EXIF data, therefore until further evidence of the aforementioned signs appears, as far as I'm concerned it didn't happen.

For the photophobes here, menacing signs do not have connections.

My husband was in Joco yesterday, no sign whatsoever of any trouble. Nada!

The narco banners DID happen, here, I found your news article that I read Monday after a friend told me it happened,
and your not getting pictures. They aren't even saying where they were, although I've been told. Doesn't really matter because they take them down right away.

http://www.terra.com.mx/noticias/articulo/1156028/Aparecen+mas+narcomantas+en+Jalisco.htm

More "narcomantas" show up in Jalisco
July 11, 2011 • 16:04 Staff
More narcomantas signed by the Zetas organization appeared this morning in Jalisco.
Police sources state that the finds were reported in the municipalities of Chapala and Jocotepec.

They did not, however, specify the exact places these narco-messages were placed.

As in the case of the narcomantas that showed up yesterday, the Zetas denied responsibility for the attack Friday in the Sabino Gordo bar in Monterrey, where an armed hit squad left a total of twenty people dead and five injured.
The discovery of these sheets in the lakeside municipalities is in addition to those in other Mexican states with a similar message.

This morning another narcomanta even appeared outside the aforementioned bar, with the Zetas again denying responsibility for the attack and blaming members of the Gulf Cartel.